Old Goat

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Posts by Old Goat

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  14

  A CO's diagnosis and counsel

  by ldrnomo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some time back when i was an elder and expressed my concerns about the blood doctrine to another elder (in confidence) the news got back to the whole body of elders and the co who i will just call (bro.

  smith) .

  after speaking to me for some time and determining that i did not believe in the wt blood doctrine.

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  Old Goat
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  38

  Science Fiction recommendations

  by JeffT in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  so i have my daughter (a 33 year old choreographer turned psych student) reading rah.

  so far she's read double star and tunnel in the sky, she stayed up all night friday night finishing tunnel.

  she's working on the moon is a harsh mistress now.

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  Old Goat

  I've been an Asimov fan since the early 1950's. I like many of the golden age of SF writers.

  Ann McCaffrey is good. I like the Pern series best I think, and after that the Rowan series.

  David Eddings keeps me entertained. Anything by A. C. Crispin is good. (Full disclosure: Ann's a friend. Her books are good, friendship aside.)

  I discovered Rachael de Vienne by reading the truthhistory blog. She co-wrote the Nelson Barbour biography I've recommended on this board. She writes fantasy fiction too, and I fell in love with her book, Pixie Warrior. I bought the audio version from audible.com. I'd have chosen a different reader, but it was well worth it. I also bought the ebook version.

  Reading her book led me to her publisher's web site, and I've read a number of their books. The quality seems quite high on average.

  I enjoyed all the Artamis Fowel books. Yes, I know they're Young Adult fiction, but they're still fun.

  I should plug my own books, but then I'd generate more problems for myself than I wish. If you read YA books, you may find one -- or one can hope you do. My non-Witness dad introduced me to Science Fiction and Fantasy. I have most of his books and re-read them. Between his library and mine and what my wife has added there must be four or five hundred SF and Fantasy books on our shelves.

  Guess you can tell that I never paid all that much attention to Watchtower advice not to read either genre.
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  15

  How do elders step down?

  by BlackSwan of Memphis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  catching up on some of the posts a thought came to mind..... .

  if an elder or ms wants to step down, what is the process?

  can it be as simple as saying "i need to step down" without having to supply an explanation?.

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  Old Goat

  Dear Eyeslice,

  We had a brother who had to wear a beard. His doctor told him to because of some sort of skin disorder. If he shaved he got some of the worst skin and ingrown hair problems I've ever seen. His beard was clean, neatly trimmed, and very presentable. In the environment in which we both worked (government/academic types) neatly kept beards were common. The majority of the elder body (I think I was the only dissenter) wanted him removed as a Ministerial Servant. The two elders chosen to 'explain the issue' told him to live with the skin condition or be deleted. Understand that this was a painful condition. He kept his beard, and I never blamed him for that. One of the elders said, "People will think he's a hippie!" (That dates the episode) He wore expensive suits. He was very presentable. No one would ever have seen him as a hippie. (Or is that hippy?)

  I understand the need to have those on the platform look nice. I don't understand some of the other rules. We had a sister who came straight from her job as a cook to meetings. She came in her work clothes. It was that or not make the meetings. One of the elders wanted to tell her to stop. She came in the last second. She sat in the back. No one minded. We all knew what the circumstance was. That is - no one minded but an idiot elder who wanted her to wear a dress.

  Then there was the great plastic coat controversy and its predecessor, the Nehru Jacket conspiracy. One of the brothers bought a black leather sports-coat style jacket. It was expensive and very presentable. He wore it on the platform a few times. No one objected. Brother "I’m pretty much clueless" went out and bought a mustard yellow plastic jacket. You know the type? Fake leather in a color not found in nature? He wore his on the stage. It was second hand and cracking and had a hole in the sleeve. I'm not picking on someone too poor to afford nice clothes. He just liked the coat. We asked him to wear something better. He exploded. The "other brother" got to wear is leather coat, then he should be able to wear this plastic abomination! The resolution? Brother A retired his leather sports coat for casual use only. Brother B still wanted to wear his plastic "thing" but didn't. Petty and stupid.

  I'll leave the great Nehru Jacket conspiracy for another day.

  Parking? Yes! I was in the attendant department at a convention. Across the street from the convention was a MethodistChurch. Two of our attendants, based on what a department head told them, tried to regulate parking over at the church. Moronic? Heard of the Masonic Conspiracy (don't laugh. I don't believe in it either) This was the great Moronic Conspiracy! Anyway, I walk out to where they were and find them across the street at the Church. I tell them to leave those people alone. They insist it's their job to control parking. I say, not on a public street, it's not, and not in someone else's parking lot. Anyone remember the District Servant named Dugan? Tough man, but fair. He finally had to tell the idiot in charge of parking to stop.

  These things are just silly. They do not mark witnesses as perverts, anti-christs, evil sectarians or any such thing. Just as inordinately silly. They put people in positions of responsibility who are not trained, have only marginal good sense, and almost no experience. If there is blame in this silliness, it rests on a governing body that is anti-intellectual and leaves the elders untrained in areas that matter.
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  15

  How do elders step down?

  by BlackSwan of Memphis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  catching up on some of the posts a thought came to mind..... .

  if an elder or ms wants to step down, what is the process?

  can it be as simple as saying "i need to step down" without having to supply an explanation?.

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  Old Goat

  When I resigned, I told them I was too sick to continue. Everyone knew I was incapacitated most of the time. I'm older than dirt. What I didn't tell them was, "You all just put us through eighteen months of misery based on the mindless prattling of a mentally ill man (in and out of a mental institution) and the insistence on the part of one of you that we take all his accusations seriously. We spent the last year and a half in a witch hunt mode, from which I have not been able to awaken you. I give it up. All you accomplished was to prove the man nuts and to hurt some really faithful brothers and sisters."

  Not having stated the obvious helped. The circuit overseer visited about three weeks later. They deleted me then. Unexpectedly, he wrote a letter to the Service Department or whomever, saying "Brother Old Goat is seldom seen in the ministry." (I averaged 20 hours a month, though most of it was informal witnessing because I was an am seriously ill. I was house-bound most days.) I got a six page single spaced letter from them telling me how vital service was and saying, "You can't resign. We delete you for not going out in service." I never replied.

  I took decades of letters and files to my office. (I still worked part time when and as I could. We owned the business) I dumped them all in an industrial shredder designed to handle inch thick piles of paper. I mentally severed my connection with the Watchtower in my office basement. I had just started to physically deteriorate. The three years previously had been spent either in bed unable to even get to the bathroom without assistance or in a UniversityHospital. But in the opinion of the elder who had started the trouble noted above (now dieing of cancer, I might add. I have no sympathy for him.), I was "faking it." He had the ear of the Circuit Overseer.

  I wasn't really surprised. I had been active since the late 1940's. I'd seen similar foolishness from the service department before. The 'brother' in charge way back when was an ex-marine who never got it out of his blood. He only heard what he wanted to hear. He and his buddy Nathan had called one of my friends out of his circuit and back to bethel to grill him over a so-called demonic experience that occurred in his circuit. It was insane. So, no, I wasn't surprised. But I was angry. I'm still angry.

  If it had been secular employment, we'd have ended up in court. No employer could do what they did and come off unscathed. As it was, I shrugged my shoulders and saw it as par for the course.

  The really insulting thing was subsequent elder anger that I'd resigned. And even greater anger that brothers and sisters called me with their problems in preference to going to the elders. I faithfully sent them to the elder body, and I never commented on their reluctance. But I understood it.

  The Society and elder bodies seek to control your every breath. They act stupidly. I am still seen as a faithful witness. I'm not though - not in anyway that they would recognize. I spent a goodly time angry at God over the whole thing. It took me a while to recover a sense of proportion. I expected God to teach his children good sense, and was angry that he hadn't. The alternative is, they aren't his children, and he isn't responsible for that other fella's kids.

  The ecclesiastical authorities among Jehovah's Witnesses make me physically ill. There is an occasional Christian among them, but not many. In my last active years I was gossiped about. I was accused of being an apostate. (Wasn't so at the time; I'm not sure it's so now. I believe the doctrines, mostly. A few I puzzle over. I don't teach contrary doctrine. I especially didn't then.) I was faking my illness. I lied on my service report. My wife and I were on the verge of divorce because she couldn't cope with my illness. You name it, someone said it. Much of this came from the mentally disturbed man I mentioned earlier and was passed around by his elder buddy. How does one defend against this? I ignored it until someone specifically asked about something. Then I dealt with it on a person by person basis.

  Attending meetings was a chore. I need help dressing some days. I can't walk well, sometimes not at all. I would get sick in the middle of a meeting and have to leave. My entire family would have to drag me out to the car and get me home. It was a big chore. I stopped going. I eventually gave up trying to resolve my issues. They're not resolvable.

  The elder who was the focus of everyone's problems has been deleted twice since. They keep reappointing him. He's dieing now. I'll dance on his grave. (Can you hear the enduring anger?) At the same time, I silently thank him for helping me to see what the Watchtower truly is, a power mad organization of Pharisee-like individuals who haven't a clue what real Christianity is. (Elder during meeting: "We tried love and it didn't work! Now it's time to get tough! --- Honest, that bit of conversation really happened!)

  Eventually a rift developed between the "bad elder" and his primary supporter on the elder body. Mr. Bad Elder has a history of attacking other servants going back to the mid 1960's, when he was first appointed a Congregation Servant. He left a trail of "bodies" all over the region way back when. He'd contrive complaints and try to get those removed whom he felt were cutting into his power or whom he felt showed him in a bad light. He lied to do it. I remember sitting in our Kingdom Hall office/library and discussing his complaints against another elder. He insisted the man's business practices disqualified him as an elder because of something an Awake! said. I asked him to show me the article. He said he didn't remember what issue it was in, "but it's in there somewhere and we need to delete him!"

  We're in the library, right? Okay. Index in hand, I go looking. I find an article. We look. He says, "Yes! That's it!" I say, "Show me where it says what you claimed." It didn't of course. Nothing of the sort was there. So he dropped it, right? No way Jose'. He was back within a week saying, "You know he lies during committee meetings?" On and on it went, until another elder and I cornered a Circuit Overseer and told him the whole story. He cooled down for a while. Later he went back to it, picking off two more elders. One simply moved to another congregation to get away, and one threw up his hands and resigned.

  After I resigned, he would drive by my house once or twice a day. It was out of his way, and I do not know what he thought he would see. Another Witness family lived across the street. He enlisted the "brother" in his spy network. After a few months this brother walked across the street to tell me that he was supposed to keep track of my movements. Tell me? Does this sound like Christianity to you?

  There wasn't much to see. I was mostly in bed.

  My health improved for a while. I was able to resume attending, though I often had to go into the office and lay on a couch. I fixed up the Kingdom Hall library, sorting the books and filling in gaps. There was an old copy of Pastor Russell's sermons in there. The circuit overseer came and saw it. He was an obnoxious kid as far as I was concerned. He was, to say the least, uninformed. He told the elder body they needed to meet with me to discuss the apostate literature I'd put in the library. He gave them a list of books. Apparently he did not know that the Peoples Pulpit Association was the first name of the Watchtower Society of New York.

  I made one of the elders go through every book in the library and verify that it was a Watchtower Publication. The only things that weren't were a couple of dictionaries and some Bible translations. Does this sound anything like Christianity to you?

  Interestingly, I later found that one of the men I pioneered with back in the late 1960's and off and on into the 1970's had a similar experience, though the actual issue came from a sister looking through a box of books a non-witness had donated and that had come from his grandmother's estate. Because he was Ministry School Overseer, he was blamed for two non-Witness pamphlets found in the box. Of course, he hadn't even seen the box. It was left on the doorstep and the sisters carried it in and snooped. Are elders insane? or just stupid?

  So here I am. Cut loose from a religion I spent most of my life actively supporting. I do not reject Jehovah's Witnesses. I think many of them are fine Christians. I think of every elder, every ministerial servant, all those in authority especially those in Brooklyn as suspect. I spent too many years dealing with them directly to see them any other way.

  I'm trying to reassess my relationship to God and to the Witnesses. I've been re-reading back issues of The Watchtower with a more critical and thoughtful mind. Will I go back? I do not know. Does something need to change? Yes. This is not the clean organization I always hoped it was and wanted it to be. The spiritual soiling that concerns me isn't the common sins of common people. That happens, and it won't stop. Life is life. What concerns me is the self-view, the self-justification (as opposed to divine justification) of those in authority. And the crazy-butt side doctrines that have nothing to do with faith. Oh my Lord, make them go away!
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  34

  a thought about copyrighted materials

  by actage in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.

  and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.

  but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.

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  Old Goat

  Excellent examples of what footnotes and endnotes should be like are found on the TruthHistory blog. Go to http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ and scroll down to the article "Foreign Language Fields within the United States." The author's endnotes are well done and to the point. Nothing pertinent is omitted.

  There are alternative ways of citing some material. Form is often dictated by the publisher or journal to which one submits their material. I require a fixed format from my students, but in practice there are several acceptable formats.

  A footnote for one word in quotation marks? There are occasions when one would do that. For instance, suppose we wrote:

  “Rutherford was known to swear vociferously both in person and in his correspondence. His private letters to Peterson provide several examples. In five of these letters we find him using the vulgarity 'fargorfargarat,'[insert footnote here: Rutherford to Peterson June 1, 7, 12, 1922 and April 2 and May 4, 1941. John P. Peterson papers, Harvard University Library, Box 10.]”

  We attributed a singe word to Rutherford and such a bad word it is. Tisk. Now we must document the one word with our source, an archival collection found at Harvard. Of course, this is a contrived example, and I'm sure Rutherford never swore (too much) in his life. The point is that there are times when one word quotations should be documented.

  Plagiarism: A sin. Don’t do it. You’ll be caught. I’ll fail you and drop you from the course.

  Footnotes in proper form, but essentially fake: Assume others know the material as well as or better than you do. And, by God, do not cite something I wrote and claim it says something it does not. I’ll notice. I’ll shake my head at it, but I won’t find it funny. This is a sin. If there were a hell of fire, doing this would send you straight into it. Even if a reader doesn’t know the material you cite, someone will try to recreate your research. You’ll be caught.

  Rule of thumb: Many endnotes do not make a scholarly work. Any fool can write an endnote or footnote. Example the Watchtower’s Creation book.
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  34

  a thought about copyrighted materials

  by actage in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.

  and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.

  but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.

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  Old Goat

  Johnathan,

  Apparently you can't distinguish between "most" and "all." What I wrote is not false. Most books published before 1964 are in the public domain because their copyright was not renewed. As I said, there is a web site that tells one the copyright status of older books.

  At least you know how to find wikipedia. That's a plus. Now if you learn how to distinguish between "most" and "all" you'll be making real progress.

  Re-read this: Without discussing all the various details of American copyright law, most works published before 1964 are in public domain, that is anyone can reprint them or otherwise publish them. This is not always so, and there is a web site that will tell you if a book or other matter is still under copyright.
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  34

  a thought about copyrighted materials

  by actage in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.

  and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.

  but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.

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  Old Goat

  The server for this site isn't in Japan, as far as I know. It's covered by American copyright law. Without discussing all the various details of American copyright law, most works published before 1964 are in public domain, that is anyone can reprint them or otherwise publish them. This is not always so, and there is a web site that will tell you if a book or other matter is still under copyright.

  Some authors make their work available for free reproduction. That’s an author’s personal choice, and it must be clearly stated some place in the work.

  I write young adult fiction. I've had my work pirated before. It's upsetting. Authors and artists should be respected. There is, however, the fair use doctrine. It allows one to use short excerpts and quotations. Major bits of my books are readable on Google Books, but my arrangement with them is that entire sections are blocked out. This is in my interest. It lets a reader get into my books and decide if they like them. Like it? Want to read it all? Buy it. Thanks.

  I’m smart enough not to publish under my real name. None of my books have magic in them. But they do have fantasy creatures. One of them has a dragon in it. Oh My GOD! I just realized I’ve corrupted Witness youth world wide! Do you have any idea how deeply and silently I chuckle when I see something I wrote sitting on a Witnesses’ shelf?

  I’m probably getting myself into trouble with this post. Questions answered in advance: No, I won’t tell you what name I write under. My family knows it. If they found me here, there’d be heck to pay. No, none of my books have been made into movies. Close a time or two. One was optioned briefly. No movie. Too bad. I could use the money. No, I’m not Stephen King, though I wish I had his money. I’m not Ann McCaffrey. The only similarity between us is that we’re both older than dirt and we both have written about dragons. I’m not satisfying anyone’s curiosity, am I? I’m mildly sorry. But you understand the issues I think.

  There are more Witness and ex-Witness writers out there than you may realize. One writes SF. One of the guys I pioneered with back in the 60’s writes history. A sister I grew up with writes chick books, mild romance with no sex and no violence - “I found true love” stuff that is sold primarily to the “Christian” market.

  Isn’t it sad that creativity is frowned on by many Watchtowerites? When my first book was published my daughters wanted to tell everyone. No. Just no. I know “the brothers” well enough to know that someone would make it an issue, because they have 1. No sense of proportion in life; 2. Hate the very idea of creativity and see writing of any sort as the sole province of some under educated Brooklynite; and 3. It’s none of their business.
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  97

  The Worst Thing About Being in your 40's

  by Robdar in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the worst thing about being in your 40's is your friends start to die.

  it's the first year anniversary of the passing of my friend, john kessler.

  he was so tall, so blonde, so loving and so goofy.

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  Old Goat

  bubbette, then. though i was addressing everyone, I think. I can read without my glasses, even at my advanced age. If I hold the page three inches from my nose. My plastic lenses are a bit over a quarter inch thick. So you prolly hit the nail in the head or at least hit it a glancing blow.
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  97

  The Worst Thing About Being in your 40's

  by Robdar in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the worst thing about being in your 40's is your friends start to die.

  it's the first year anniversary of the passing of my friend, john kessler.

  he was so tall, so blonde, so loving and so goofy.

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  Old Goat

  You're worried about your 40s? I don't even remember forty. I'm not sure I remember 60. Forty ain't old, bub.
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  25

  I've Got An Idea: Sue An Elder!

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i honestly think that if individual elders thought they personally might get sued, they would back off from talking to you or trying to hunt you down.

  i know i always was nervous that i'd havv=e to hire a lawyer and pay $$$ out of my own pocket.. what do you think?

  might that not discourage elders from violating your rights or harrassing you?

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  Old Goat

  Dear Minimus,

  I do not know what your experiences have been, and I cannot address them. When one becomes a Witness one consents to certain practices and congregational procedures. After one leaves, that consent goes away.

  Suing another for harassment is difficult. It is not difficult to get a no-contact order. I’m sure the press would love to print an article saying that Minimus sought a no-contact order from the County District Court (or what ever it is in your area) to prevent elders of Jehovah’s Witnesses from harassing or in anyway contacting them.

  This will require you to document what they do. Keep a diary devoted exclusively to your interactions with Witness elders.

  I can see it now, “According to the order issued by Judge Mary Lue Loopie, Jehovah’s Witness elders are prevented from approaching within two hundred yards of the Minimus house. The Minimus family asserts that the Witness elders acted in concert to harass and intimidate them. The elders worked to break up the Minimus family and deprive them of previous associates. Witness elders have a middle-school mentality, Minimus told the judge.”

  I stopped elder visits by simply making them prove ever point they made. I was an elder for years and before that a congregation servant. I was a servant when most of them were in diapers. Heck, I was a servant before most of their parents were born. I know what they say, where their talking points come from, and what the Watchtower really says about the scriptures they commonly abuse. Hit the books.

  You know what they say. Compare it to the Watchtower’s own comments. Elders commonly misstate what the Watchtower says. Politely beat them with their misstatements. Ask them, “Where is that in the Bible?” Say, “Isn’t that verse really about …. ?” Require the issue date and page number for any point they make. “Can you point me to a Watchtower that explains that?”

  You have no idea how uncomfortable most elders become if they must actually do their job as they should. There’s no need to be belligerent, just insistent. Listen. Be a good listener. Just require Biblical proof. You may be surprised. There may actually be an elder who gives you real attention and works to answer your questions. Mostly, you’ll make them uncomfortable, give them a guilty conscience, and they will NOT come back.

  Elders are failures as shepherds. They’re untrained and undereducated. What passes as training for elders is all organizational; there is no in-depth Biblical study. Blame this on the Governing Body and their 130 year history of anti-intellectualism.

  They ask you if you think theirs is Jehovah’s organization? Your answer is: “I find the very question offensive. Where were you when I needed help? I take better care of my children than you do of the congregation. If we’re children of god and you’re shepherds, should this be so?” If they return to the question, restate your strong feelings: “You’re offensive. You have no right to question my relationship to Jehovah.” Or, you can just say, “based on my experience with you brothers and the other local elders, I’d have to say ‘no.’ Jehovah cannot possibly approve of what you do.”